[The Upper Noe Neighbors] will be having a follow-up meeting about the San Francisco shuttle study on Thursday, June 4th. There will be an update from the SF County Transportation Authority on progress made since our last meeting. Also on hand will be a panel of employers from Google, Genentech and more whose companies contract the shuttles. These employer reps will be there to address questions from neighbors and provide information about their shuttle services. Obviously, this meeting is a must for those who use or are affected by the shuttles in Noe Valley.Who isn't likely to be there? Representatives from the bus companies. So while Google, Apple, Genentech, etc, can laud the good they're doing, no one accountable for large buses speeding, ignoring weight limits or idling while waiting in front of residences and businesses will hear your concerns. Hopefully word gets back to them...
What: Upper Noe Neighbors Monthly Meeting
When: Thursday, June 4, 7:30PM
Where: Upper Noe Rec Center, 295 Day St.
[NVSF: Shuttle Buses: Useful or Menace?]
I would think the reps from Google, Apple, Genetech DO actually have some say into the bus' behavior, editor...they're the ones paying their bills and I'd bet that if they found one bus company that wasn't willing to adhere to certain items they requested, they'd look to another bus company.
ReplyDeleteAlso, editor, I don't understand your argument that these are ignoring weight limits, speeding, etc. From one of the people that commented last time on your blog (via your link above), "...I can't find any evidence that these shuttles are in violation of San Francisco or California laws..."
So are you just casually tossing this out there and seeing if it'll stick? kinda biased, no?
caveat: I do live in Noe, but I do not work at these companies nor use these buses, obviously. But I am a fan of them *in general* as I think they help support the community indirectly - ie, keep good wage-earners / families in the 'hood and keep them buying / purchasing at merchants on 24th St. With all the store closings on that street, I'm a fan of things like this that can help keep the stores in business!
Editor: Please cite San Francisco or California laws that back up your claim of "ignoring weight limits".
ReplyDeleteIf such laws or weight limits don't exist, please don't imply that they do. This is confusing at best.
If, however, they do exist, that would definitely be worthwhile information to add to the discussion.
Re: weight limits. Take a look around the streets of Noe Valley and check out the signs that restrict traffic to commercial vehicles less than 3 tons. That's the limits we're talking about. As a reference point, that's any vehicle bigger than your average Suburban or Escalade.
ReplyDeleteThese buses are great! They make it easy for high income earners to move into the neighborhood and further push out low income and working class members of the community. This in turn maintains the high property values we are all enjoying!
ReplyDeleteum... you realize I'm being sarcastic here...
NoeValleySF - which streets specifically?
ReplyDeleteCommenter from 10:20pm...oh come on...so the people riding the bus are not 'working class', eh? they're just riding the bus to have fun and enjoy a trip down the good ol 101!?
but oh, i hear ya - just the other day I saw some ebay'ers move in down the street and they actually forcefully kicked out the long time working-class person that lived there...yep, they just marched in and kicked them out....you realize I'm being sarcastic right?
Anyone find it ironic that this blog is hosted by Blogger, which is run by Google?
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure where all the hate comes from. Clearly the owner of this blog uses Google and probably uses Apple products too. They're made by people in the neighborhood, who are trying to use less oil by taking a bus to work.
Maybe you should stop using Google if you're against Google employees living in your neighborhood?
Furthermore, if these people are worried about working class people not being able to afford to live in the neighborhood, this is the wrong way to go about it.
ReplyDeleteRent control and efforts to support affordable housing all are far more effective. I bet some of those tech company employees vote for and even donate to causes and politicians working for affordable housing!
I wonder where those against the tech company employees stand.
If the Googlers and Apple-ites are causing some of the NIMBYites to move out of SF, all the better. I can't imagine they're good neighbors.
First off, people who bought houses on the main street paid less because they are ON THE MAIN STREET. It's something they should have considered when they paid around $50k-$100k less than their neighbors. It's not like these buses are construction vehicles banging away. These are no louder than your typical motorcycle or Truck with a modified exhaust.
ReplyDeleteAlso those businesses near the stops benefit from foot traffic they normally would not get if those 50-100 passengers end up driving to work.
Then let's not talk about the savings in greenhouse emmissions, brake dust washing into the bay, even hybrid batteries, unrecyclable car parts, etc. etc.
Then there's city money. Those saving money riding the bus has more to invest in the city itself. If I can save $60 per week over driving I would be more likely to go buy a nice dinner or save the money to invest in a nicer home.
Personally I hate public transportation because it violates my freedom and personal space but I'm all for these types of buses. If you want to complain about bus stopping, complain about MUNI stopping every 2 blocks because people are too lazy to walk. Then there's the lazy people who drives around and around trying to get the closest parking spots available. That's productive and "green".
Meetings like this is a joke when a bunch of selfish people use petty excuses to make their lives more comfortable at the cost of the bigger picture. Kind of reminds you about how humans are destroying the environment but not really caring as long as they get theirs.
It must be nice to live in Noe Valley, where the biggest issue apparently is some additional bus traffic! Boo Hoo!
ReplyDeleteYou guys clearly need to have a couple pot dispensaries move in!
Re weight restrictions.
ReplyDeleteHere is a link to a pdf map from the SFMTA showing which SF streets have weight restrictions. I'm not aware, nor have I seen any corporate shuttles operating on Noe streets that have a weight restriction. Maybe the editor could name a weight restricted street that has a bus route on it or ask at the meeting which streets these buses operate on before stating as fact that these buses are violating city code.
http://www.sfmta.com/cms/venf/documents/restrictedtrafficstreets_000.pdf
Oh, there is a pot house on Sanchez and 27th. The whole neighborhood smells like pot sometimes. He was busted after a sting operation. He got out of the klink and he's now back selling.
ReplyDeleteNoe Valley has a couple of houses like this. FYI.
Is there a public transit system that runs from San Francisco down the 280 corridor to cities like Cupertino? If so, I was unaware of it. That leaves two options, that I can see:
ReplyDelete1) each worker (and there are thousands of people who work in the South Bay and live in San Francisco) can get in his or her private auto and drive 100+ miles per day, round trip, or
2) hire professional transit services that enable people to safely commute together in lieu of public transit systems that go to those areas.
Is the San Francisco transit authority interested in building a light rail system down 280 to the South Bay so that San Francisco residents can mass-commute to those areas?
Are the anti-bus (or are they just anti-worker?) residents in Noe Valley interested in paying higher taxes to finance the construction of new, multi-regional public transit systems for the currently unserviced regions of the bay?
I live on 26th between Noe & Sanchez and these buses go down my block everyday. My residential block has over 12 children that call this street home, this is not a MUNI bus route street.
ReplyDeleteI'm not crazy about these buses for the following reasons - They go too fast down the street, they idle in the street, are noisy and smelly and they add traffic congestion of a narrow residential block. I've seen these buses go back and forth multiple times in one morning.
I used to work at Apple so I understand the need for this sort of commuter bus, sure it's a great thing but I think it should be more respectful of the neighborhood. I suggest they follow MUNI bus routes, go slower, no idling,fewer stops and to mix up the route to spread the pollution and noise.
1) the shuttles park in the muni bus stops while waiting for passengers.
ReplyDeletea) this forces muni passengers to get out in the middle of the street and figure out a way to walk around the shuttle with traffic speeding by. not a big deal to most of us, but the elderly and disabled don't find this fun. nor do the spanish nannies with the white babies and strollers.
b) does the city get compensated for this somehow? why do the shuttles not get fined for parking in a muni stop?
2) walking out of your house to find a double-parked bus in front is not cool.
3) having these shuttles use the muni stops is a serious slap in the face to all folks that have no option but the disgusting muni service. those of us that pay for fast passes every month have to watch a bunch of google folk play on their laptops and wait for their gleaming chariot to arrive and park, then make us walk into the middle of the street to get on our roach coach when the muni shows at the same time.
4) people waiting at muni stops for the google bus fakes out the muni drivers who stop and then no one gets on.
and yes i live in noe and take the 48 to bart every day.
Why don't people live where they work rather than commuting long distances? I live in Noe Valley because it's close to my office and I can easily commute using Muni. If I worked in Mountain View I'd live in Mountain View. I don't understand why SF should be a bedroom community for Santa Clara Valley workers.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I don't understand why some pretend that bussing highily paid tech workers into SF neighborhoods has no impact. It does make it more expensive for people to live here as it drives up rents and housing prices (that's just basic economics of supply and demand). If you want a neighborhood of just highly paid professionals, great, Noe Valley is just about there.
"Why don't people live where they work?" asked a poster.
ReplyDeleteMaybe some of us own a home in San Francisco...or have lived in San Francisco for much longer than you have, and consider it our only home.
Maybe some of us value the things that this unique American city has to offer, like public transit...and diversity...and a concern for the environment.
Maybe we'd happily take a job in San Francisco if we could find one that covered our housing costs, rather than commute up to 4 hours per day.
Maybe jobs are transient, while homes are not, though it sounds like this poster does indeed move from one place to another, and San Francisco is just a temporary pit stop.
Maybe living in the suburbs-- and ultimately being car-dependent -- is not something that we want to do.
Maybe it's not the cubicle workers in the big corporations who raised the housing costs in the Bay Area during the past few years. Ask your local realtor who's been buying these properties.
Maybe things just aren't that simple...and there's more than one side to every story.
"Why don't people live where they work rather than commuting long distances?"
ReplyDeleteI commute 40 miles to Santa Clara on Caltrain daily. My wife commutes 4 steps to her desk. We could move to Santa Clara and put the burden on her. We could move to San Carlos and both be screwed. Or we could live in Noe.
We'd make a radical change except for the fact that my 40 mile commute is less invasive than most people's 5 minute commute. my Bike->Caltrain and her shoes.
The highly paid professionals are not the first to invade Noe Valley. That honor goes to the Spaniards, followed by "The Americans".
This should sober people up:
ReplyDeletehttp://lens.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/02/pictures-of-the-day-3/?hp
Look around the world people...this is a non-issue.
Also, please don't refer to Latinos as Spanish. At least learn general discourse if you live 6 blocks from the Mission.
ReplyDeleteI was referring to the actual Spanish. You know, the guys who funded that Columbus guy...
ReplyDeleteNot you...the person who said Spanish nannies.
ReplyDeleteHistory major: got what you were saying.
WHO ARE THE EDITORS OF THIS BLOG??? STEP FORWARD AND IDENTIFY YOURSELF OR SELVES. READER'S CAN BE ANONYMOUS IF WE WANT THE THE PURVEYORS OF NEWS SHOULD BE ACCOUNTABLE. THE NOE VALLEY VOICE HAS AN EDITORIAL BOX WITH REAL NAMES IN IT. WHERE'S YOURS??
ReplyDeletere:
ReplyDelete"Maybe jobs are transient, while homes are not, though it sounds like this poster does indeed move from one place to another, and San Francisco is just a temporary pit stop"
Actually (this poster) has lived in Noe Valley for 20 years, the first 18 were in another neighborhood south of SF. But you do have a very good point that things are not that simple. Many things have contributed to the high cost of living and exclusiveness of Noe Valley and these buses have probably played a relatively small part in it.
I'll add: I'm a fan of the buses, but if they're constantly messing up Muni's parking/picking up people, that's a legit issue that should be hashed out. I'm sure that there's a solution to that somewhere. Maybe the bus companies pay SF for the ability to stop there. Or maybe the buses need to act more like the delivery trucks in trying to stick to the major routes (though those trucks must too go through side streets, right?)
ReplyDeleteAnyway, I think both sides have legit issues and if folks calm down then some solutions can be discussed.
BTW, on an interesting note: I notice that the double-parking delivery trucks drive me / others mad, but we don't say 'let's ban them from 24th' do we? They just get handled by the police who give them tickets.
anonymous @ {June 2, 2009 3:27 PM} makes a few points. anonymous is a regular muni rider, i'm a regular shuttle rider. some points fair, others not so much. one by one:
ReplyDelete1) the shuttles park in the muni bus stops while waiting for passengers. this forces muni passengers to get out in the middle of the street and figure out a way to walk around the shuttle with traffic speeding by. [...]
this is a fair point. as a shuttle rider, i cringe when the bus is blocking a muni and people need to get on or off the muni. one solution might be for busses to share the stop one at a time in a queue (what happens when two munis share a stop), but i suspect this won't happen absent some agreement between muni and private operators.
i would point out that, in riding the shuttles for many yers, i do see a concerted effort by the drivers to keep lingering in the muni stops to a minimum. (i can't speak for all of the drivers and operators out there, nor could i say that all muni drivers are helpful and friendly despire riding them regularly.)
does the city get compensated for this somehow? why do the shuttles not get fined for parking in a muni stop?
i've seen parking police ticket shuttle busses, so don't assume this isn't happening. beyond that, as an sf taxpayer, i don't really see what the city is entitled to.
walking out of your house to find a double-parked bus in front is not cool.
i wonder what the specific problem is. is the bus unattended, or are you mildly hassled at having to wait for it to let you out? to me this is in the same category as finding a ups, fedex, or random contractor truck blocking your car; an extremely temporary hassle.
having these shuttles use the muni stops is a serious slap in the face to all folks that have no option but the disgusting muni service. [...] a bunch of google folk play on their laptops and wait for their gleaming chariot to arrive [...]
sorry, but you're losing me there. i can't imagine what you think when a private car or limousine passes by.
i think it is fair to debate safety and inconvenience effects of the shuttle, but we should stop before devolving into hurt feelings and class warfare.
speaking from experience, most of the people you see on these busses would love to work in the city and ride muni (myself included), but that's just not where the work is. as another post asked why can't you just live where your work is?, this is a tremendously loaded question that would be, at best, a difficult decision if even possible. (see one poster's santa clara commute.)
[aside: have you ever attended a private school and had to endure endless insinuations that you are 'rich' just because of it (when in fact you were on scholarship?) i understand the knee-jerk impression you get of private busses such as google's being a 'chariot' for a bunch of spoiled kids, but by the same stroke it wouldn't feel nice if all muni riders were cast as poor dirty bums. let's leave these sorts of generalizations out of it; once safety and convenience issues are solved, i'll be happy if all that's left is to return to calling names.]
(continues..)
(continued)
ReplyDeletepeople waiting at muni stops for the google bus fakes out the muni drivers who stop and then no one gets on.
(note: this, like most issues here, is not specific to google or any one shuttle operator.)
i've seen this happen, too, and agree it could be a problem. although, from most shuttle stops i've seen, those riding a private shuttle stay well clear of the muni stop, and it is rare to see a muni bus 'faked out' these days. as a muni passenger who has had a bus just skip a stop out of inattention, i'm not so sure causing muni drivers to slow down at stops is the worst thing...
i think what this and your earlier point suggest is an agreement needs to be developed on sharing shuttle stops.
as a taxpayer, i care little if a vehicle is temporarily occupying the muni stop when not needed by the muni bus -- i'm sure you know of many stops adjacent coffee shops that are used this way.
what would be great for both parties is if an 'us-vs-them' attitude does not pervert a real discussion. i'm sure given what little experience i have with san francisco politics, this is naieve at best. but i hope both sides are willing to concede a few points, as i have.
Funny. We have these buses in the Marina/Cow Hollow and no one seems to care.
ReplyDeleteWhat? They're idling! OMG! Noise in a city? For realz?
What's with the stick up the ass, Noe Valley?
Um, actually people in the Marina do care, except others who don't (or who use them) are a little too self-involved to notice. As long as we're engaging in broad generalizations that is.
ReplyDelete1) the shuttles park in the muni bus stops while waiting for passengers.
ReplyDeleteValid point here but how often does that happen? I've seen it happen twice in 5 months. What about the cars stuck behind the Muni drivers that stick out in the middle of the road because the driver is too unskilled or uncaring to pull INTO the stop? Same problem here.
b) does the city get compensated for this somehow? why do the shuttles not get fined for parking in a muni stop?
Why? Does the city get compensated or the cars get fined for waiting in those zones too? It's not just shuttles.
2) walking out of your house to find a double-parked bus in front is not cool.
Once again. Your fault for purchasing a house on a busy street. Whether it's a bus or a delivery van or just some punk kid reving their engine, it's a known risk for where you live. That's why property purchase is about location, location, location.
3) having these shuttles use the muni stops is a serious slap in the face to all folks that have no option but the disgusting muni service. those of us that pay for fast passes every month have to watch a bunch of google folk play on their laptops and wait for their gleaming chariot to arrive and park, then make us walk into the middle of the street to get on our roach coach when the muni shows at the same time.
Have you ever wondered why it's "free"? Did you know Google folks actually PAY for this out of their salary? If you ever bothered to do research about salaries you will notice that there's roughly a 10% drop in Google salaries due to all those "free" services.
4) people waiting at muni stops for the google bus fakes out the muni drivers who stop and then no one gets on.
Everytime I've seen it, shuttle riders usually step back away from the stop when a bus arrives. Sure there are exceptions but generally I haven't seen this to be an issue. Also riders are suppose to indicate they want on such as taking a step forward, flagging the driver down, pull out their MUNI pass, etc.
and yes i live in noe and take the 48 to bart every day.
Good for you. I pay for your BART ride even though I never take it. It's called taxes. Also should you pay for an annoyance fee because don't forget, BART makes noise too especially those tracks that goes over people's houses. You really need to re-evaluate some of your logic.
The silver buses most definitely turn around using Jersey street, between Castro and Noe. According to the SFMTA map, this is a weight restricted street.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.sfmta.com/cms/venf/documents/restrictedtrafficstreets_000.pdf
1) the shuttles park in the muni bus stops while waiting for passengers.
ReplyDeleteValid point here but how often does that happen? I've seen it happen twice in 5 months. What about the cars stuck behind the Muni drivers that stick out in the middle of the road because the driver is too unskilled or uncaring to pull INTO the stop? Same problem here.
--> take the 48 some time. the shuttles are always in the valencia stops. this debate is about whether the shuttles should be able to use/disrupt muni's resources and services, not their inability to drive.
b) does the city get compensated for this somehow? why do the shuttles not get fined for parking in a muni stop?
Why? Does the city get compensated or the cars get fined for waiting in those zones too? It's not just shuttles.
--> why are you google folks so self-entitled? it is a bus stop, not your private parking spot. it's a $350 fine to park in one. with muni raising fares AND cutting services, why should a private company be allowed to use the muni resources for free?
2) walking out of your house to find a double-parked bus in front is not cool.
Once again. Your fault for purchasing a house on a busy street. Whether it's a bus or a delivery van or just some punk kid reving their engine, it's a known risk for where you live. That's why property purchase is about location, location, location.
--> it's my fault for purchasing a home in a quiet, residential section of an already residential noe valley many blocks off of 24th? i dont remember living on a busy street.
3) having these shuttles use the muni stops is a serious slap in the face to all folks that have no option but the disgusting muni service. those of us that pay for fast passes every month have to watch a bunch of google folk play on their laptops and wait for their gleaming chariot to arrive and park, then make us walk into the middle of the street to get on our roach coach when the muni shows at the same time.
Have you ever wondered why it's "free"? Did you know Google folks actually PAY for this out of their salary? If you ever bothered to do research about salaries you will notice that there's roughly a 10% drop in Google salaries due to all those "free" services.
--> again, are you google people so self-absorbed that you think i would spend time researching your salary structures? wow. and whether or not you pay google is irrelevant. if you're not paying muni, your shuttle shouldn't be in a muni stop.
4) people waiting at muni stops for the google bus fakes out the muni drivers who stop and then no one gets on.
Everytime I've seen it, shuttle riders usually step back away from the stop when a bus arrives. Sure there are exceptions but generally I haven't seen this to be an issue. Also riders are suppose to indicate they want on such as taking a step forward, flagging the driver down, pull out their MUNI pass, etc.
and yes i live in noe and take the 48 to bart every day.
Good for you. I pay for your BART ride even though I never take it. It's called taxes.
--> exactly. muni is a public, city service. why should google be allowed to usurp its resources?
There are several Peninsula and South Bay corporations who provide bus transportation for their employees in San Francisco, and they employ several different coach services.
ReplyDeleteThousands of employees, comprising several companies, use these buses every day. I don't think all the drivers are violating Muni bus zones nor driving on streets that aren't on the Muni routes, nor endangering people. They are professional drivers who work for private firms with stringent guidelines.
I also don't think we're "faking out" the Muni drivers. We stand as far from the curb as possible in an orderly queue against the storefronts. We see the same Muni drivers at the same time every day, and by now, they recognize us. You can't miss us: we're wearing badges, backpacks, white earbuds, and looking at our iPhones. Muni drivers know who we are, and we stay out of their way.
Our drivers never "park" in the bus zone nor even idle there. They stop long enough to open the door and let us get on safely, and that's it. I've never seen any of our buses parked in the city. They're always on the move, shuttling people.
I'm sure it's annoying to some people to hear the hustle and bustle of city traffic during rush hour on weekday mornings. But to bring in city officials, declaring *all* the private buses to be reckless, interfering with the city-run buses, and violating your rights is inaccurate and unfair.
See you Thursday night!
FYI, Google does pay the city of San Francisco a lot of money to let the shuttle buses use Muni pickup spots.
ReplyDelete"Also, I don't understand why some pretend that bussing highily paid tech workers into SF neighborhoods has no impact. It does make it more expensive for people to live here as it drives up rents and housing prices (that's just basic economics of supply and demand). If you want a neighborhood of just highly paid professionals, great, Noe Valley is just about there."
ReplyDeleteI had to think about this one again. I take the 48 to Caltrain every so often. It's full of people in suits who transfer at BART to jobs in the financial district. Seems to me we need to get rid of the 48, since it is also responsible for Noe Valley's gentrification.
As for delaying the 48, there seems to be a lot of virtriol about the shuttles, but I guarantee the biggest delays seen by the 48 are parents double parked on Douglass dropping kids off at Alvarado. When is the community meeting about that?
Did Noe Valley become an expensive place to live only after these shuttles started? Um, I think not.
ReplyDeleteI live on Jersey street, right by you (person posting about silver busses on Jersey). It is weight restricted, and yet people often drive like jackasses down it. I have never seen a corporate shuttle or "silver bus" use it to turn around but if the people riding on that bus were to drive their cars instead I am sure at least some percentage of them would be terrible drivers - and cause more trouble.
ReplyDeleteLiving among people has some down side, transport is one of those things we should try to minimize the burden of. I think these companies should be commended while we ask them to make minor improvements like minimizing use of residential streets for turn-abouts.