We've been saying for some time that the trend towards high alcohol wines
isn't a good thing. Witness this query we received via email:
The Zin was good at dinner- Homemade adobo with Lolonis Zin from Drewes (a butcher selling wine? is that a problem?). I'm just curious. Why all the corner fruit selling and where does it come from? Strawberries at Sanchez and Church? Fruit cart vendors on 24th Street? 2 for a dollar mangoes at Skyline and Westgate in Daly City. What does it all mean?
Laughter aside at a bit of "drunk dialing" ... it's a good question. What's up with the fruit vendors on Noe Valley corners? Are the super-cheap flats of strawberries anywhere near as good as the berries from the farmer's market? Does the price trump freshness? Has anyone bought fruit from these guys – and why or why not?
The fruit vendors *aren't* cheap.
ReplyDeleteAs in, usually I have found them to be more expensive than farmers market- which is like the opposite of southern california, where you know your avocados, etc. are going to be cheaper on the roadside.
I don't understand!
Also, I don't generally buy from them, because I like to know where my fruit comes from. I broke down once though, and they were halfway decent, but I'd prefer to support local growers.
I was confused about how it could make financial sense to do this, til someone pointed out: they are probably all out of work construction workers, trying to earn some money any way they can.
ReplyDeleteI was wondering if they are local by default, but I guess they could be selling them from a truck that came from anywhere.
ReplyDeleteI wish the strawberries were organic. I would probably buy some then!
I'm not buying from them. Not because I'm against them, but I just don't feel it's fair buying from them vs. from my corner store / grocery store / local farmer's market. That corner / grocery store / farmer's market is probably suffering during this economy, but in general is still playing by the rules and paying city and state taxes.
ReplyDeleteIf we're always complaining when stores (esp grocery stores, etc.) leave town/close up shop, then we should be supporting them with our business in these times. Thus, I would rather support them with my $'s.
I've been wondering this too, but haven't stopped to ask. What I'm most interested in is who's running the enterprise. It feels to me like these guys are dropped off for the day on a corner in the middle of some residential neighbourhood. A centrally run thing, not a bunch of independent guy.
ReplyDeleteI've been seeing them around San Francisco for over a year now.
I agree that they are being dropped off by someone running the show- or at least the one family member with a truck. My guess is that they are pickers from Half Moon Bay, but I still don't know how they can earn any $ off a $2 basket of strawberries. They are tasty- but not organic and this purchase does not help the local corner grocer. However, I can't spite them for trying to earn $ to feed their families any way they can.
ReplyDeleteWow, this conversation makes me shudder. You are making all these assumptions about these people. Why don't you just ask where the fruit is from; I am sure all of you can eek out a bit of Spanish.
ReplyDeleteAnd, they must have a family member who owns a truck? What? All I can say is that you should be a little more culturally aware.
I agree don't make assumptions. They are making an honest living or at least trying to. They are not being aggressive and if people are buying their stuff then it is a win win situation. I just hope someone isn't an ass and make a stink about it and have them fined. All the power to them!
ReplyDeletekitchen bitch, i hear you, but I can't totally agree it's a win-win situation. If folks are buying from them and not from the local store / farmer's market, isn't that a lose for that local store / farmer's market??
ReplyDeleteDoesn't seem too fair even if it is 'just strawberries'.
Otherwise, why can't I just start selling, say, croissants and muffins at the corner of 24th/Castro and undercut the local stores?
I'm not saying 'fine them' or anything like that, I'm just saying you can't say it's a total win-win.
It's really about the weird assumptions people make about these guys that they are shady or doing the community wrong. They are trying to make a living like everyone else. I don't like the sterotyping that is going on. It makes me very disheartened to live in this community b/c of this-it's a kind of backwards view at brown people which stands out in Noe Valley. This conversation just reinforces the liberal white viewpoint that makes this neighborhood look bad. Just saying...check your viewpoints.
ReplyDeleteHow do you get from people asking questions about who's selling fruit on street corners to accusations of racial prejudice?
ReplyDeleteI don't particularly mind unlicensed folks selling fruit, we like the funky in San Francisco. I just hope the fruit is healthy and the guys doing the selling are getting properly paid for their work. Hence my question about who's running the operation; I really don't think this is someone selling strawberries off their family farm. I should ask.
I agree with Nelson - nobody said anything about who these guys are or where they're were from... whether or not someone dropped them off has nothing to do with anything except for the concern for local vendors who pay rent and taxes and are thus at a pricing disadvantage. Then of course there is the issue about where the produce comes from... yes you can ask, but who are you to assume one has to ask in spanish?
ReplyDeletePersonally I think people that are so ready to make PC hay are the ones in the end that are compensating for having issues they accuse others of.
What's up with all these comments. Is this news by comment and innuendo. Apparently Noebody knows the Who, what, when or why--nor does it appear any responding party has actually bought some of the strawberries being offerred. Why can't Noe Valley SF answer this question by doing some actual reporting. I guess we will just have to wait for the Noe Valley Voice to provide some answers. Maybe all you commenters could write your comments to the Voice editors, who might then assign somebody to actually find out some answers. I will continue to sign "anonymous" until the publishers of this blog stop being anonymous. Where is the journalistic accountablility.
ReplyDeleteIsn't the main problem that these guys are undercutting the corner stores AND not playing by the rules? Not paying taxes, abiding by health inspector rules, etc. That seems unfair even if these guys "are just trying to feed their families." The rules are there for a reason.
ReplyDeleteThe fruit sellers were out on several corners today so we decided to stop and see if we could get some answers. They speak very little English, so we struck up a conversation in Spanish. Here’s the lowdown:
ReplyDeleteThe guys on the corners selling fruit in Noe are all former gardeners in San Jose who are out of work. They’re all recently here from Mexico (moved here in the last 1-2 years) and are in their 20s. Several days a week, a man picks them up in San Jose in the early morning and runs them up here to San Francisco. He drops them on the same few corners around Noe (24th/Diamond, corners on Clipper and Castro, Sanchez/Cesar Chavez) for 8-12 hours at a stretch, then picks them up and drives them back to San Jose and the end of the day. The guy who runs it is a business guy – not family or a friend, and apparently mainly uses this crew in Noe. The fruit sellers have no families in the U.S. – they’re just supporting themselves. On days when they don’t work the corners and can’t find gardening jobs, they work the farm fields harvesting fruit. They make $55-$70 dollars a day when there’s work. There was no animosity toward the man that hires them or the work - it's just a job - and they're happy to have people stop and talk.
What about the fruit? Today the fruit guys were selling strawberries, cherries and manila mangoes. The strawberries and cherries are from Watsonville and are organic (the seller confirmed this several times and in many ways), and the cartons and containers were clearly labeled organic. The mangoes are from Mexico and are not organic. Cherries were $5 a pound; strawberries and mangoes were $10 a flat. As for the quality and flavor of the fruit – we can’t vouch for the strawberries but the cherries were on par with the organic ones from the 24th Street Farmer’s Market, and the mangoes look as tasty as any you’ll find in the Mission. And if you do buy, be prepared to share with friends and neighbors or start baking – they only sell in bulk (those flats are HUGE).
Wow, awesome research, thanks!
ReplyDeleteThanks for the research. I still have concerns. It seems these guys need the work and this is honest labor. Unfortunately, it kind've reminds me of the recycling thieves. At first we thought- these poor guys are just trying to make a living and as long as they don't make a mess and too much noise, how could it hurt? Then we find out, it's a ring with trucks coming from across the Bay, Sunset Scavenger is losing lots of recyling money, and some neighbors got knives pulled on them for confronting the thieves. And PEOPLE, just because the fruit is labeled organic, how much faith do you have in that?
ReplyDeleteTo those who claim their wariness isn't about race, I'm looking forward to you making a big a stink next time white kids are selling Girl Scout cookies on 24th Street.
ReplyDeleteFor those of you who are worried about the fruit labeled organic not being organic, note that it's likely not all of the produce labeled organic in the grocery stores is organic, as there is very very little produce at all in the US that goes through the conventional food system that is source-identified. Someone along the way labels it organic and everyone farther down the line sells it as organic based on trust. Organic gets a premium price, so there's opportunity and temptation to re-label. And there many farms that use low or no pesticide methods - or are in practice fully organic but haven't paid the money to be certified organic are just as good. (If what's going on in the olive oil market is any indicator, it's a mixed bag. The New Yorker did a great article a while back on olive oil and how much of what is sold as extra virgin from Italy is a mix of different oils, not from Italy but only bottled there, etc.)
ReplyDeleteYes, Anonymous: selling cookies from licensed bakeries as a fundraiser is totally the exact same thing.
ReplyDeleteI've often wondered about the veracity of organic labeled items. Considering you hear everywhere that less than 1% of produce is organic, it seems there is a considerable amount to be had.
ReplyDeleteI don't get worked up about only buying organic produce in good part because I don't trust that it all is. It seems too easy to lie and get people to pay a premium.
Your comparison to Girl Scouts is fascinating, Anonymous. This year we should truck up a proper ethnic mix of little girls from San Jose to sell unlabeled cookies in plain white wrappers. Every day, on a different corner, standing in the sun for 8+ hours. Just to be clear, since I'm not anonymous, I have no problem with a couple of unlicensed folks selling strawberries on street corners. I'm glad to hear the guys like their job. Shame they're not making the $9.79/hour minimum wage.
ReplyDelete(If you're looking for good fruit at reasonable prices, I really like the produce shop at 23rd and Mission. No idea if it's organic, but it's ripe.)
I actually think the Girl Scout analogy is apt. It's hard to see brown people in Noe Valley I know! I know because I am one of them. People are always scared of me and I swear I am not going to rob them. I went to a good school have a good job and I am always looked at twice. I want to have the same niceties as everyone else, but I fear I will have to move so that I can have peace of mind. The whole, I am afraid of outsiders, is crazy.
ReplyDeleteI'll try and be brief:
ReplyDelete- kudo's for the research, thanks!
- still not a fan, not because of the sellers but because of the idea that some dude (san jose businessman) is profiting off of this and he is not going through the normal system of getting a storefront or any sort of licenses, etc. He's not paying a DIME of taxes to the city but he's profiting off of the city / the people. He's also ripping off local store owners by doing this.
If he really wants to sell in the city: sell to the local stores, or setup a spot at the Sat or Tues farmer's market, or request a license from the city to sell on the street corner (good luck).
Simple: play by the rules.
Oh, and while I do feel sorry for the folks doing the selling, I feel worse for the employer and employee of the local nearby store or farmer's market stall: an employee might get laid off (who WAS getting paid min. wage and health insurance) because we're all trying to save a few bucks by trying to buy from the corner. If you feel sorry, then do a donation to that person or a charity.
It's just my opinion, but there are far more important things than this to get worked up about, even "in my backyard." As for race, we should ask ourselves whether we'd be in such a lather if the people selling fruit on Noe Valley corners were white college kids on summer break.
ReplyDeleteLet's put it to the test. I'll stand on our corner with my Peaches and see how everyone reacts. I'm white, I can show pictures of the trees, I'm the owner, I'm the only person who put fertilizer on them (and can show you the bag).
ReplyDeleteIf nothing else it will be amusing for the juxtaposition. But I only have about 100 peaches so the experiment can't last long.
Exactly what "corner stores" are we talking about in NV that sell local strawberries. Not everyone finds a Saturday morning farmer's market convenient (though now we have Tues evening as well, it's still a pretty limited window). Maybe they are coming to NV specifically to take advantage of the current grocery drought...I don't remember seeing them in past years.
ReplyDelete"I guess we will just have to wait for the Noe Valley Voice to provide some answers."
ReplyDeleteErrr...the real estate ad vehicle that had 4 (!) articles about housing prices in the last issue?
This is to Nelson who asked...
ReplyDelete"How do you get from people asking questions about who's selling fruit on street corners to accusations of racial prejudice?"
I think everyone on here making comments knows that the sellers are Latino. Assuming we all agree on that how is the following comment not racially prejudice:
"I was confused about how it could make financial sense to do this, till someone pointed out: they are probably all out of work construction workers, trying to earn some money any way they can."
My point being is that we as a community in Noe Valley are not the kind of people who make these kind of assumptions. We are a community that welcomes those who mean good with open arms while at the same time standing up for what we believe in. Do we know for sure they're not paying taxes or are we assuming? "Do we know that the fruit is not organic, or are we assuming? Should we now start complaining about the guy on 24th and Sanchez that sells stuff out of his Garage or the guys on Church and Ceasar Chavez that have a "Garage Sale" every Sunday? I mean come on guys. We have 6 empty store fronts on 24th between Castro and Sanchez and we're all up in arms about guys selling strawberries? Ask yourself what you're doing to help this community. Are you volunteering, are you giving back or are you just complaining that there are outsiders invading our comfort zone. We need to encourage people who are creating commerce in our community. What if that guy selling strawberries is a relative of someone looking to open a store or a restaurant. Will they go back and tell them that our community was nice and accepting? Or will they go back and tell them that we kicked them out because we didn't think, at first glance, they belonged. We live in this neighborhood for a reason and anyone that's lived here for a while knows what that is. When you read this I hope that it gets you to, at the very least, reach out and do something to help your neighbors get through these tough times. Just because other communities are suffering doesn't mean we have to. It all starts with your attitude.
Smile and go out and help us succeed!
Well-said, Anonymous. There are so many examples of people working or employing others (even upper-middle class whites living in Noe Valley!) in the informal economy, that to make a stink about a few guys on the corners selling strawberries not "playing by the rules" (e.g., paying taxes), seems a bit absurd. How many employers of regular housekeepers, nannies, gardeners, or the up-and-coming category of personal assistants, file 1099s or make some contribution to healthcare costs? Shouldn't we all then be required to "play by the rules"?
ReplyDeleteAnonymous at 2:33pm. Nicely said, but I still disagree on a lot of points...
ReplyDeleteDo we know for sure they're not paying taxes or are we assuming?
- not talking about the folks selling the produce but the man behind the scenes in San Jose who is selling this in SF w/out paying any taxes (please tell me you don't believe that the San Jose proprietor is actually paying taxes?). I do have HIGH confidence that the owners/managers of Dellano's and 30th/Church Produce stores ARE paying their taxes and paying folks proper wages and probably funding the city health care plan.
Do we know that the fruit is not organic, or are we assuming?
- good point. I don't care either way, but that's part of my point: if it was an authorized seller and for some reason they were labeling it organic and it wasn't, you could report it to the city/etc. You can't really do that here. Who's to say that this produce is by-far-better-managed/produced than anything available at a farmer's market, or is it produce rejected already by grocery stores because it lacks any documentation on whether it was handled cleanly or not? I guess I'll check on this corner-selling-fruit business website..oh, that's right, I can't.
Should we now start complaining about the guy on 24th and Sanchez that sells stuff out of his Garage.
- Good point. I'll ask him next time I'm there. I'm betting he's having to at least report his sales.
Or the guys on Church and Ceasar Chavez that have a "Garage Sale" every Sunday?
- Not sure, but I doubt it. Can you imagine if you lived next door and every Sunday your driveway is blocked by this 'business'. I wouldn't really enjoy that.
I mean come on guys. We have 6 empty store fronts on 24th between Castro and Sanchez and we're all up in arms about guys selling strawberries?
- So having folks sell illegally on the corner HELPS potential 24th business owners? I gotta disagree.
Ask yourself what you're doing to help this community. Are you volunteering, are you giving back or are you just complaining that there are outsiders invading our comfort zone.
- No, I'm buying from my local Noe and Castro stores, instead of selfishly trying to save a buck on some corner strawberries. I'm helping fund SF healthcare and helping keep local employees that work their (regardless of race / color / etc.) employed. How about you?
Smile, go out, and buy some strawberries from 30th/Church Produce!